Federal Bureau of Investigation. "Transcript of conversation with Stanley D. Levison
and Bayard Rustin." February 1, 1966.
Date Issued: February 1, 1966
Date Declassified: December 14, 1983
Length: 8 pages
NOT Sanitized
 FULL TEXT
Time Initial IC
OG Activity Recorded
11:15 AM IC and R-1885-45.
MARTIN LUTHER KING to STANLEY LEVISON and BAYARD RUSTIN.
KING: Calling about the press bothering him and he does
not like to go into this matter without getting advice.
The Press starting calling about resumption of the
bombing (Vietnam) and wanted to get a statement from me.
I held all of them off by not talking to them. That's
what I am calling about, to get your advise as to
whether to say anything or let it go. Or what kind of
statement to make. It may be that they will stop
bothering me now anyway.
RUSTIN: Don't believe it. They're not going to stop.
It's bound to come up. Sooner or later some reporter
will ask what you think about resumption of the bombing.
KING: Even if they don't bother me here, the minute I
land in Chicago and have a press conference they will
ask me, and I really need to think it through and think
of the kind of answer that should be given.
LEVISON: It seems the logic of your position is that
you're opposed to it. The question is do you have a
particular position on it. Do you associate yourself
with General GAVIN's position. To be specific, or WALTER
LIPPMAN'S position which is pretty much the same as GAVIN.
Or just express opposition in general.
RUSTIN: Why wouldn't the simplest thing for MARTIN
be to say something which puts him on record as opposed to
it, but which does not put him in the field with a lot
of other people who say JOHNSON (president) is a phoney.
By saying that he (MARTIN) deeply regrets that the president
felt it necessary to resume the bombing which not only
ordinary citizens but some outstanding Military people
and Senators also felt, to be tragic. Because by saying
he regrets the president saw fit, those words do not
imply any moral judgement of the President, but it does
make it clear that he lines himself up with Senators and
military men. I would not name them unless they ask.
LEVISON: I like the idea of associating himself with
the, what's now a very impressive group of senators.
I'm not too certain whether any reference need be made to
the president.
RUSTIN: That's good, but then he would have to say
that he regrets it that the bombings were re-instituted.
KING: I felt something. I was thinking the same way.
Naturally I regretted it, that the bombings were resumed.
Maybe I could go on and say that I am happy to know that
the President did refer the matter to the UN. And I guess
it's in a sense for the first time that the matter has
been referred to the UN by the United States. The hope
will be an encouraging sign.
RUSTIN: Just for your information MARTIN, U THANT
tried to convince the President not to do that, they don't
want it. Because they know without China there, nothing
really can be done. And they are frightfully afraid that
the UN prestige is gonna hit an even newer low, as a
result of this. "And I got this from you know who. So its
from the horse's mouth."
KING: Uh, Huh.
LEVISON: Un, Huh.
RUSTIN: But, I think you have no course but to say:
Number one, that you were deeply impressed by the great
number of Senators who called for indefinite ceasing of
the bombing. And great numbers of other people took the
position.
Number two, You deeply regret that they (bombing) have been
resumed, and
Number three, that you are very hopeful that the UN
would now get into this and will really make a difference,
and would really be helpful. By establishing first who
you are with.
LEVISON: It's terribly important to mention that,
not only because it helps you to be with others, but
because this is enormously significant. Never before
during a war has such a group of Senators taken a stand
against it. It's particularly marked in MARTIN's case
because when he first came out on the issue he was pretty
much alone except for the pacifists and the people you
expect. And now he's almost forgotten. So, It's very good
to keep that in mind.
RUSTIN: In addition to GAVIN, who were the other
military men?
LEVISON: RIDGEWAY.
RUSTIN: Just in case they ask him (MARTIN).
KING: I was not aware of RIDGEWAY, but I was aware of
GAVIN.
LEVISON: RIDGEWAY, who actually in a military
hierarchy was far more important than GAVIN wrote a
a letter to Harper, which Harper has not yet published.
They're publishing it in the next issue, saying he
endorses GAVIN's position.
RUSTIN: Yes, I remember hearing about that.
LEVISON: He's the former Chief of Staff.
KING: Yes, that's right.
LEVISON: So, the whole situation is fantastic. You have
outstanding military men, outstanding political leaders
outstanding newspapers. It's a rather extraordinary
development. And frankly one almost doesn't have to be
creative or emphatic any more. We have to point out how
much position there is. This is an argument in itself.
RUSTIN: Now, the one thing that is coming up now, that
they may put to you as an independent question is do you
think the President acted sincerely. Because all the young
kids now, and some of the pacifists are beginning to
attack him, and particularly LYND (STAUNTON).
LEVISON: They were doing that from the beginning,
actually.
RUSTIN: They're doing it worse now.
KING: Well, I don't think I would take that position.
I don't think it is necessary for me to personally attack
the President.
LEVISON: That's right.
KING: On terms of his integrity, at this point. I wouldn't
do that.
RUSTIN : I agree.
KING: The other thing I want to ask, I got a call
yesterday from LINUS PAULING, or his assistant, and he has
come up with an idea that the marches haven't really made
any change in policy and something has to be done on the
political front, to really deal with the peace question.
And that only Washington only restricts votes. There needs
to be a campaign over the country to elect peace
candidates, so to speak, to Congress. And, he wants to
start a fund that would support such candidates, people
who would run on a peace platform. He wants to send this
letter out under my signature and his signature, which
would be basically a fund appeal. And I didn't know how
to tell him no, although I had questions about going into
this or lending my name to it.
KING: Or lending my name of it. If for no other reason
that I have to think about fund raising for SCLC and the
civil rights movement and I may extend myself too far.
RUSTIN: That's what I'd tell him. He can't argue about
that. Every civil rights group in the country is in the
cold (or hole) and everyone knows it.
LEVISON: I don't think that's the reason MARTIN ought to
give BAYARD, because then it sounds as if he's too ego-
centric. There are better reasons why MARTIN shouldn't be
the one to go out in front and do the fund raising.
RUSTIN: I don't think MARTIN should be associated with
PAULING's effort at all.
LEVISON: I agree with LINUS PAULING that something
other than marches and draft card burnings is indicated
in this situation, and I think there would be nothing
wrong with some candidates on a peace platform, but you
don't do this sort of thing by getting two essentially
non political men to suddenly start a political action.
If many or a significant number of the professional people
who are involved, wanted to do something, if you had a
base for it, then it would make sense. But to get LINUS
PAULING who's never been involved in running a candidate
himself, or MARTIN who's never run a candidate himself,
to jump out and do this you know what will happen. When
STEWART HUGHES (PH) ran on a peace ticket in Massachusetts
he got something like 8 or 10% of the vote with a massive
effort behind him. It takes a lot of work to do a good
job in this area. In principle I am not opposed to it,
but I am opposed to doing it badly. And it would be done
badly if MARTIN and LINUS PAULING do it. They are not the
people.
MARTIN: Yea.
RUSTIN: The point is that what I'm afraid of is that
PAULING may have been in touch with all these fellows,
and they said if you can raise the money, we are prepared
to proceed. I don't want MARTIN to run into that one.
Let me talk about this for a few seconds. 1966 will be a
very difficult time for the Republicans. Negroes and many
other groups are going to move away, in protest. Chicago,
MARTIN, is a city where you will see this. IF DICK GREGORY
really runs there will be some real problems. You add
to the negro protest, the peace protest, all of which I am
in favor of, and don't misunderstand me, you will however
run into a vicious attack and if you're prepared to face
it that's a different matter, on the part of the Labor
movement and other elements which have a vested interest
in getting the Democrats in. They will feel the peace
candidates and the negro candidates and the like are going
to stop that. That's one aspect of the problem.
KING: Uh huh, that's true.
RUSTIN: The second problem is that unless you know, and
this is the most serious of all, who these peace candidates
are going to be that they are raising money for, you could
be thrown into an impossible situation. Suppose STAUNTON
LYND gets a hold of some of this money that MARTIN LUTHER
KING raised and he says some of the things which he is
says, and you can get less rational people than him.
KING: I think all of these are very good, but I don't
tell him all of this, but I think I can use one or two
of the points and just get out of it.
RUSTIN: I like STANLEY's point, but I think it's one of
several points, and I don't want him to come back to you
and say here are the political people who've asked me to
raise this money.
KING: Well he says he has some in California.
LEVISON: When I mean political people, I don't mean
a few small people, I don't mean a STUART HUGHS (PH). My
belief is that the whole peace movement has risen to
such heights that you now have to think in terms of
Senators, in terms of important people of the House.
These are the kinds of political people that I'm talking
about.
KING: Well what's wrong with the first part. That I would
be kind of egocentric if I said I talked to the members of
the board of SCLC, we had made a policy on this, that I
not use my name for any fund appeals unless I cleared
it with the Executive Committee, because I am the
chief source of fund raising for our organization and there
is a feeling that we would have to appeal to some of these
same people for our budget, and spread too thin.
LEVISON: The thing that is wrong with it MARTIN is that
there is a myth that your magic in raising money, especially
among these kinds of people. They get a number of the
letters that we send out and they think we are always
raising money, and that SCLC is wallowing in funds and all
you have to do is sign a letter and the money comes rolling
in.
KING: I would be admitting that that is not true by
saying or making the appeal on two levels, that it wouldn't
be effective because we are already having financial
problems, and to go into another level of fund raising it
will make our situation much more difficult. I mean I
would be admitting that my name isn't magic.
LEVISON: I don't think they would believe you. I've run
into this myth in many places. And they would say, you don't
know how magic your name is in this, you'll just let us
use it. Then you have to argue that we need money and they
don't even believe that.
KING: I could put that off on the board or the Executive
Committee.
LEVISON: I would object putting weight on it, but can
use is as an argument among others.
KING: I'll use two or three things we brought out here.
RUSTIN: By the way, MARTIN, when you finish what you have
I have a couple of things to ask you about.
KING: Well, let me ask you this, can you come to Chicago
this week? To sit down with us on this think that I talked
with you about the other day? I'm going in tomorrow but
I had left over Friday and Saturday morning.
RUSTIN: I could probably come in Friday, where do I
come?
KING: We could pick you up. You have to live in the
slums though. You can't live in bourgous hotel. You'll
be in the midst of the slums and you'll get some dope
addicts, and gang leaders coming in on you.
RUSTIN: Did you hear what ADAM's statement was about
you? He said, "Martin Luther King is moving to the slums
of Chicago. I don't know what's news about that. I've
been living in a two room flat in the slums all my life,"
and its got rats and roaches." RUSTIN says ADAM
(POWELL) said this at a meeting up here last Saturday.
KING: That number Bayard is 542-0515, or 542-0521.
RUSTIN: I will make arrangements to get into Chicago
sometime around ten or eleven and I will telephone somebody
there and tell them on Thursday when my flight comes in
and somebody can pick me up.
KING: Okay, that's good.
LEVISON: You're gonna be in tonight for that meeting
tomorrow?
KING: Yes, I'll get in in the morning.
LEVISON: I have that material on the Nation thing, and It's
important that it be gone over very promptly because you
know there's pressure for it.
KING: Could you leave it at Park Sheridan. As it stands
now, I'm supposed to to leave on a flight at 1 something
in the morning which means I'll get in there at 3:00 or
4:00, something like that. I can get it if its in the
box when I get in. I can get it and go over it before I
go to the meeting in the morning.
LEVISON: Fine.
RUSTIN: I have two thing. One is I have received
letters from CANNON COLLINS (PH) and the Provost
at Cambridge Univ. and apparently they have invited you
over there to speak some time in 66 or 67, by they've
not heard from you. My own feeling is you could do it
sometime in 67 because you could get tremendous publicity
at Cambridge, and they would be inviting you over especially
for it. Second thing, I had a long talk with ROY WILKINS
yesterday, who claims that he has inside dope that DAILY
is in such trouble politically in Chicago, that he is
prepared to make some very major breakthrows in the negro
community and is prepared to do them with you, because he
does not want to do them with any segment in Chicago,
particularly the "mad" boys. And ROY, this is interesting
coming from ROY, feels that you (KING) want a vigorous
campaign off the ground immediately, the sooner you gonna
get a victory out there, because DAILY is waiting.
KING: Yea.
RUSTIN: I don't know if this is true. One thing about ROY,
I don't think he'd lie.
KING: That's very interesting. I haven't had any
contact with DAILY at all. Our meeting tomorrow night with
all the Negro elected officials, they are DAILY's boys
by and large and he may be getting them to me.
The reception has been tremendous. The news-
papers in Chicago have been interesting. They have
editorials on instant slum clearance. They say I won't
have to march if the pickets move from slum to slum and
we'll get all the slums straightened out. When I moved into
this place, the man immediately
not only straightened our place out, but the whole
building. They immediately started an investigation of
all of his buildings and he had to appear last week
and this week before the building committee and they had
things moving. It meant so much to the area where I am
living. It gave them a big life.
RUSTIN: Which side are you on?
KING: West side.
RUSTIN: Have you thought about pulling those two
communities together, they are always at each other's
throats. By getting a subsidiary place on the other side.
KING: We have discussed that and I will do a lot of
work on the South Side. We have kind of a problem there,
because CCCO kind of feels that we've put everything
on the West side and they have more resources on the
South side. My office is on the South Side,
the CCCO Office is on the South Side.
RUSTIN: I have a feeling that psychologically since
those two communities are at each other's throats,
there will be some resentment if you don't have a place
where you live on the other side also. You think about it.
KING: I think that's something to think about.
LEVISON: When I was in atlanta I said this is likely
to be the pattern (cleaning up of landlord), and its
important that we get credit for this because the people
consider this a real accomplishment for them. At a certain
point it may be desirable to move from one slum house to
another in order to dramatize the changes made.
KING: Yea.
RUSTIN: Yea. I think that ought to be thought through.
LEVISON: You must not let the improvements accomplished
get away from you, because a lot of changes are taking
place from this effort.
KING: Well, we have some exciting days ahead.
LEVISON: Yes.
KING: I'll get that material and go over it with you
(LEVISON) tomorrow.
(ALL SAY GOODBY).
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